Can You Argue with God?
Sermon #3 on conversations in the Bible
Hello dear readers! I’m getting this out late due to being down with something intestinal, but I’m recovering. When I preached this sermon on Sunday, people were laughing during the scripture reading. I think that reveals how surprising this story is. We don’t expect God to want input and wrestle with us over a moral dilemma, so we laugh when we hear Abraham bargain with God for a few righteous people in an unjust city. So, take the time to read the scripture first. I also have a lot to say using the story of Sodom and Gomorrah as a “clobber” verse on homosexuality. In the comments, I wonder how this scripture surprises you. How does it fit with your view of divinity?
16 Then the men set out from there, and they looked toward Sodom, and Abraham went with them to set them on their way. 17 The Lord said, “Shall I hide from Abraham what I am about to do, 18 seeing that Abraham shall become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him?[a] 19 No, for I have chosen[b]him, that he may charge his children and his household after him to keep the way of the Lord by doing righteousness and justice, so that the Lord may bring about for Abraham what he has promised him.” 20 Then the Lord said, “How great is the outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah and how very grave their sin! 21 I must go down and see whether they have done altogether according to the outcry that has come to me, and if not, I will know.”
22 So the men turned from there and went toward Sodom, while Abraham remained standing before the Lord.[c] 23 Then Abraham came near and said, “Will you indeed sweep away the righteous with the wicked? 24 Suppose there are fifty righteous within the city; will you then sweep away the place and not forgive it for the fifty righteous who are in it? 25 Far be it from you to do such a thing, to slay the righteous with the wicked, so that the righteous fare as the wicked! Far be that from you! Shall not the Judge of all the earth do what is just?” 26 And the Lord said, “If I find at Sodom fifty righteous in the city, I will forgive the whole place for their sake.” 27 Abraham answered, “Let me take it upon myself to speak to my lord, I who am but dust and ashes. 28 Suppose five of the fifty righteous are lacking? Will you destroy the whole city for lack of five?” And he said, “I will not destroy it if I find forty-five there.” 29 Again he spoke to him, “Suppose forty are found there.” He answered, “For the sake of forty I will not do it.” 30 Then he said, “Oh, do not let my lord be angry if I speak. Suppose thirty are found there.” He answered, “I will not do it, if I find thirty there.” 31 He said, “Let me take it upon myself to speak to my lord. Suppose twenty are found there.” He answered, “For the sake of twenty I will not destroy it.” 32 Then he said, “Oh, do not let my lord be angry if I speak just once more. Suppose ten are found there.” He answered, “For the sake of ten I will not destroy it.” 33 And the Lord went his way, when he had finished speaking to Abraham, and Abraham returned to his place. (Genesis 18:16-33)
Whenever you say, "Hear my prayer, O God," you invite a conversation. It may not feel like a two-way discussion because your partner is veiled, mysterious, and on the quiet side. I get a little intimidated talking to a Senator or Tom Hanks, let alone the maker of heaven and earth. I hope God has more important problems than my frustrations, such as stopping the war in Sudan or sorting out Gaza and Israel. On the other hand, maybe God is frustrated with intractable problems and welcomes more mundane concerns. Attempting a conversation with God can feel like starting a new blog online. You write something meaningful, post it, and wait in silence. Is anyone reading it? The analytics say 50 people have clicked on your post, but no one likes it or comments. Does your voice reach anyone? Yet we persevere!
Last week's sermon explored listening with Elijah for the still, small voice of God's Spirit. The story revealed a tenderness of angels caring for Elijah, and God did not speak in the wind, earthquake, or fire but in the sound of silence. In my spiritual journey, I have practiced silence enough to become comfortable letting go of busy thoughts. Occasionally, I sense the awe of a loving presence, a slight whisper of "Yes." But what about my prayers, and bigger questions about suffering and injustice? Does my voice register out there in sacred space, or is prayer just self-talk wishing for a partner? Here is a bigger question. What if I'm angry, not just questioning myself or having doubts, but ready to shake my fist at the maker of heaven and earth in frustration and despair? Will that get some divine attention, and if so, do I want to go there? Can you be honest with God, even when arguing and challenging?
Abraham's dialog with God gave me food for thought this week. Its strikes me that God was the one having an inner dialog and decides to share with Abraham. God is upset by injustice in the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah and wants to take action. But should Abraham know the divine mind? It seems that Abraham is a God’s critical test case to see if there can be some level of trust and communication, a covenant between an eternal and mortal being. God decides if they will work with humanity through Abraham; they must engage him. God opens with:
"The outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is so great, and their sin is so grievous. I will go down and see if what they have done is as bad as the outcry that has reached me. If not, I will know."
The word outcry alerts Abraham that a conversation is already underway. God has heard the outcry, and the Hebrew word za'akah signifies intense distress and a plea for help. God's message to Abraham parallels what is said to Moses at the burning bush. Exodus. 3:7 reads, "I have heard the cry of my people because of the taskmasters of Egypt." God hears.
A common misunderstanding is that the Old Testament God is angry and vengeful, but the text tells us God is paying attention to human suffering and wants to respond and restore justice. God is giving Abraham a glimpse of a divine conundrum. If God is just, evil and injustice must be countered. If God is loving, then some human imperfection must be tolerated. But where do you draw the line? What is a good God to do when a city is unjust?
Verse 22 says Abraham stood before the Lord. But the text note says the oldest versions of the text read, "The Lord remained standing before Abraham." Mortal humans, made from dust, are supposed to stand before the Almighty God, not the other way around. The original text may have been so shocking and unusual that early translators assumed it was wrong. If God truly stood before Abraham, it means God is not afraid to be judged and questioned by a mortal. God invites criticism.
Put yourself in Abraham's shoes. You have just heard from the maker of heaven and earth about the potential destruction of a city. What city would be picked today? Las Vegas? Moscow? Lynchburg, Virginia, or DC? Cross those off your vacation list. Abraham asks what would happen if there were 50 righteous people in the city. 50 is a good number, enough for a decent-sized church in Maine. Surely, one decent church could save even an unjust town.
In verse 25, we get Abraham's theological commentary:
Far be it from you to do such a thing—to kill the righteous with the wicked, treating the righteous and the wicked alike. Far be it from you! Will not the Judge of all the earth do right?"
"Far be it from you" could be translated, "God forbid." The literal meaning is it would be profane. You would be tainted, endangering your divinity with the swing voters. It reads like Abraham is reminding God who God is. God hears and says, I would spare the city.
Abraham may be relieved, but he wants to push back more. "I know I've been bold, and I'm nothing but dust and ashes, but what about 45." What's five fewer? God shrugs and agrees. 45 is fine. Abraham continues to bargain God down six times till they get to ten. Why ten and not five or even one? It takes ten people to form a Minyan for a Jewish religious ceremony, plus we have ten commandments and ten plagues. It’s good round number.
I love Abraham's spirit to argue with God. The story reads like two people haggling over the price of a carpet in a bizarre. It's funny, shocking, and profound all rolled into one.
After all this dialog, God destroys the city in chapter 19, saving only Abraham's nephew, Lot, and his family. Apparently, there were not ten righteous people in Sodom and Gomorrah. It's not the historical report that matters, as much as the theological point that justice and mercy are not a simple numbers game. As Bob Dillon put it in Blowing in the Wind, “Yes, and how many deaths will it take 'til he knows, that too many people have died?” You can't just determine the number of people who are killed as “collateral damage” of a bomb and declare it just. You must wrestle deeply with the value of every innocent life. We need an Abraham arguing with the Israeli Knesset and Hamas; how many thousands of innocent lives is your victory worth?
How bad were Sodom and Gomorrah? This scripture has often been used as a "clobber" text. When discussing homosexuality, it is dragged out to make the case that God is against it. Sodom is the origin of the word sodomy. The origin of this belief comes from a strange story that follows in chapter 19. Two angels in disguise are staying with Lot and assessing how evil Sodom is. A crowd gathers outside Lot's home, demanding to see the foreigners Lot is hosting, so they may "know" them. The debate is what the word "know" means here. It often has sexual desire in other references. It's a bizarre story because Lot offers his virgin daughters instead. One of the first books I read in seminary was "Texts of Terror" by Phyllis Tribble. She acknowledges that some biblical texts are violent, patriarchal, and weird. Reader beware!
An interesting picture emerges when we examine where Sodom and Gomorrah are mentioned elsewhere in the Bible. Three Old Testament prophets, Ezekiel, Isaiah, and Jeremiah, refer to the sins of the cities as a failure to pay attention to the poor and needy; they are arrogant, untruthful, and do wicked things, including adultery. The prophets are clear that Sodom and Gomorrah are unjust cities but with no references to homosexuality. If these prophets came to the cities of America today, they would be much more concerned with people experiencing homelessness than who we love and marry.
Jesus mentions Sodom and Gomorrah twice. When giving instructions to the disciples, he says:
And if any place will not welcome or listen to you, leave that place and shake the dust off your feet as a testimony against them. Truly, I tell you, it will be more bearable for Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town.": Mark 6:11
What concerns Jesus is inhospitality and turning away from listening to the truth. These examples illustrate the importance of reading scripture in context. We must weigh several references to the sins of Sodom and Gomorrah as injustice and inhospitality versus one bizarre story where Lot seems willing to sacrifice his daughters to a mob. The Bible is better understood as an ongoing conversation, sometimes an argument, rather than a static truth cherry-picked from one verse.
Which brings us back to the main point of this sermon series. Faith happens in conversation, and sometimes, we must engage in challenging discussions to get to the truth. A heard a great quote this week from philosopher Alasdaire MacIntyre. “Tradition is an ongoing argument, where agreements are made, and renegotiated over time. When God engages Abraham, even inviting criticism, God models our life together as dialog. This story should be no surprise to Congregationalists, since our name implies faith is a discussion. When dialog stops, entropy results. A crucial mission of our church is to model and defend respectful discussion as a way of life.
Really good stuff, Todd. I’ve always maintained that God can handle my questions, fits of anger, and inability to comprehend God’s “silence” on the big stuff. Thank you for pointing out that one of our very first spiritual forefathers also questioned and bargained with God.
Re: arguing with God.
Of course you can, but you will rarely win.